tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post299224445953858278..comments2023-06-21T10:52:34.013-04:00Comments on Jeremy Rosen's Blog: Hillary Clinton & ModestyAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17043970242427877089noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-17007053199116307852011-12-24T19:17:59.714-05:002011-12-24T19:17:59.714-05:00Shoshi:
And (to spice this up) I have also heard i...Shoshi:<br />And (to spice this up) I have also heard it applies to sex too!!!! <br />JRabbi Jeremy Rosenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723608669485173271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-47578472288142193622011-12-24T19:17:18.885-05:002011-12-24T19:17:18.885-05:00My Dearest Bananabrain:
Fascinating information a...My Dearest Bananabrain:<br /><br />Fascinating information about Hilary, perhaps her blue stocking was over her head. But that precisely is my point , sometimes one is so focussed on the wider issues one gets distracted by minor ones that end up causing more trouble.<br /><br />Western Intellectual thinking is often as subjective and irrational as any other. I completely agree with the critiques of Israeli society, Orthodox society Uncle Tom Cobbley and All, and saying other societies are worse is never a response, just a debating point. But the issue is only what one picks on to criticize, where and when. <br /><br />Shavua Tov and Happy ChanukahRabbi Jeremy Rosenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723608669485173271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-74048492854976806182011-12-24T19:16:10.187-05:002011-12-24T19:16:10.187-05:00Indeed DK I agree completely.
JIndeed DK I agree completely. <br />JRabbi Jeremy Rosenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723608669485173271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-85302827351067442502011-12-24T19:14:58.259-05:002011-12-24T19:14:58.259-05:00Adam:
No I do not ignore them at all. I just call ...Adam:<br />No I do not ignore them at all. I just call for perspective. They are there indeed particularly in society with so much male chauvinism , that glorifies the fighting man, that excuses violence in the home because it knows battle trauma. Then it is overwhelmingly an oriental society with oriental paternalistic values etc etc but as a society it has also had a strong egalitarian streak born out of its Marxist roots. But as we know neither Marxism nor Maoism succeeded in eradicating Male Chauvinism. I still think it it does a better job than most. <br />JRabbi Jeremy Rosenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723608669485173271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-57232430349561332082011-12-23T06:55:50.373-05:002011-12-23T06:55:50.373-05:00bananabrain:
While I agree with your line of reas...bananabrain:<br /><br />While I agree with your line of reasoning with Jeremy, I think it is very important to point out that the kind of "stupidity" described in the breastfeeding anecdote is, sadly, not limited to the upper reaches of academia. Not by a long shot.Shoshinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-54838475028274655882011-12-23T05:00:54.613-05:002011-12-23T05:00:54.613-05:00jeremy,
ok, i accept that of all the things in is...jeremy,<br /><br />ok, i accept that of all the things in israel she could have complained about, the bus system ought probably not to be first on the list. nonetheless, the same whataboutery applies to the other points you're making - yes, they're all important, but that doesn't mean this particular issue isn't worthy of comment. what was the conference about? if it was relevant to the theme, perhaps it made sense in the context. i have no particular liking for hillary clinton, but let's face it, israeli democracy can deal with most of the other threats to women's status - ask moshe katsav.<br /><br />as for hillary herself, i refer you to p.j. o'rourke's review of "it takes a village":<br /><br />"Mrs Clinton seems to possess the highly developed, finely attuned stupidity usually found in the upper reaches of academia. Hear her on the subject of nurseries and pre-schools: "From what experts tell us, there is a link between the cost and the quality of care." Then there is her introduction to the chapter titled "Kids Don't Come with Instructions": <br /><br />There I was, lying in my hospital bed, trying desperately to figure out how to breast feed... As I looked on in horror, Chelsea started to foam at the nose. I thought she was strangling or having convulsions. Frantically, I pushed every buzzer there was to push. A nurse appeared promptly. She assessed the situation calmly... Chelsea was taking in my milk, but because of the awkward way I held her, she was breathing it out of her nose! <br /><br />The woman was holding her baby upside down."<br /><br />'nuff said.<br /><br />b'shalom<br /><br />bananabrainbananabrainhttp://www.spittoon.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-20379868284474844152011-12-22T18:21:17.429-05:002011-12-22T18:21:17.429-05:00Jeremy,
I agree with you that it is typical, and ...Jeremy,<br /><br />I agree with you that it is typical, and cowardly, to pick on bus seating arrangements, but it's also easier than delving into the ramifications of corruption which if investigated in too much depth, might reveal similar unsavoury relationships in America. It wouldn't be a vote winner to say that major pharmaceutical, armament, education and health companies are all in bed with each other and with their mates in government. Apart from the sheer gloomy misery of it all, it doesn't reflect well on the democratic process that's meant to safeguard us from the potential ills of capitalism. Picking on weird Jews and their weird ways, combined with support of women's issues, is a nice soft option. Not only that but Charedi bus companies don't usually have directorships available to politicians past their sell by dates. Don't you think Hilary might eventually stomach a directorship for GlaxoSmithKline or Lockheed Martin? I mean, what exactly can retired politicians do, drive buses?dknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-77430557292084039432011-12-22T12:27:38.436-05:002011-12-22T12:27:38.436-05:00R. Rosen,
Your reply to bananabrain misses the
po...R. Rosen,<br /><br />Your reply to bananabrain misses the<br />point by ignoring the structural flaws<br />that disadvantage women in Israel.Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-57082061913084549182011-12-22T08:49:57.500-05:002011-12-22T08:49:57.500-05:00You only have to watch Sacha Baron Cohen as Borat ...You only have to watch Sacha Baron Cohen as Borat singing "Throw the Jew down the well" to the participating rednecks in the US, to know that Hillary Clinton has her own problems at home without the necessity of looking any further afield. Israel may not be perfect but, as you say, it's a lot better than many other countries.Leilanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-689899469397704052011-12-21T22:48:49.794-05:002011-12-21T22:48:49.794-05:00bananabrain:
But of all the serious issues of corr...bananabrain:<br />But of all the serious issues of corruption in the highest political ranks, of the unconscionable power of the Israeli arms dealers, the concentration of financial power in the hands of a few favoured familes, these threaten the democracy and stability of Israeli society far more than the issue of bus seats which anyway are part of a typically Charedi ploy to get money. No one of them is trying to expand the idea beyond lines directly linking Charedi communities. Nevertheless I dont like it at all. But for Hilary just to pick on that soft target instead of the real issues is typical and cowardly.Rabbi Jeremy Rosenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723608669485173271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-27581882580495701722011-12-21T09:07:52.469-05:002011-12-21T09:07:52.469-05:00jeremy - a lot of your argument is "whatabout...jeremy - a lot of your argument is "whataboutery" - ok, so saudi is more sexist than israel and salafi men are [slightly, but not much] more sexist than haredim - but neither does that mean that the problems in israel aren't worth mentioning, particularly if you happen to be visiting. of course, *not* mentioning it in saudi or wherever is bad, m'kay and, of course, we can all point fingers at hypocrisy and double standards. nonetheless, her points still stand and need addressing.bananabrainhttp://www.spittoon.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-85420809543616033992011-12-19T17:04:04.207-05:002011-12-19T17:04:04.207-05:00Any suggestions as to how level the
playing fields...Any suggestions as to how level the<br />playing fields?Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-74100973923528740312011-12-19T16:37:54.206-05:002011-12-19T16:37:54.206-05:00Adam:
Yes I agree with you. The one issue I have w...Adam:<br />Yes I agree with you. The one issue I have with orthodox authority is that it has refused to deal with this particular issue and level the playing fields. Instead it relies on either non-Jewish or Secular authorities to solve the problem. <br />JeremyRabbi Jeremy Rosenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723608669485173271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-13196964456514184782011-12-19T15:11:53.511-05:002011-12-19T15:11:53.511-05:00> Yes I completely agree. In an ideal
> worl...> Yes I completely agree. In an ideal<br />> world all options should be available.<br /><br />Isn't the question about whether the<br />traditional framework is equitable?<br />If the only way for an individual<br />to achieve a fair result is to leave<br />or opt out, what does that say about<br />the system?Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-23726339321686101372011-12-18T19:09:48.815-05:002011-12-18T19:09:48.815-05:00dk:
First of all I would always argue that an agr...dk:<br /><br />First of all I would always argue that an agreed settlement to divorce is preferable and that certainly was the course I took in my life. Avoid all courts all of the time for your own sanity and ideally lawyers too.<br /> <br />Now there are over 160 countries in the UN who only have religious marriage. This is the case in Israel. A Muslim, Christian , Jew can marry reach other but only in a religious ceremony of their choosing and this is common in other Muslim and in some Catholic countries. So dont think Israel is the only one, it is far from unique.<br /><br />Having said that I have always firmly believed that Israel should allow civil marriage and it should be a matter of personal choice and not in the exclusive hands of religious authorities. After all in the USA Jewish life is thriving without the State telling you how to get married.<br /><br />JRabbi Jeremy Rosenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723608669485173271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-39253647177076460142011-12-18T18:52:53.827-05:002011-12-18T18:52:53.827-05:00Adam:
Yes I completely agree. In an ideal world al...Adam:<br />Yes I completely agree. In an ideal world all options should be available.Rabbi Jeremy Rosenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723608669485173271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-53458767376597267982011-12-18T17:34:43.845-05:002011-12-18T17:34:43.845-05:00Jeremy,
Is there another country, in addition to ...Jeremy,<br /><br />Is there another country, in addition to Israel, that its citizens leave in order to marry somewhere else because they have no faith in the matrimonial law of their own country? I'm thinking of the Israelis who go to Cyprus to marry.<br /><br />I'm glad you'd advise a daughter to avoid the rabbinical courts in favour of the secular ones. What would you advise a son? To head straight to the rabbis in order to benefit from their bias, (at the expense of justice) or to also go to a secular court and take his chances (like a man!)<br /><br />Don't you think, that it's in these little matters that one's real colours show?dknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-25588046748363244822011-12-18T17:19:12.314-05:002011-12-18T17:19:12.314-05:00But it's not just a matter of coercing
the unc...But it's not just a matter of coercing<br />the uncoopperative. The experience of<br />having an incapacitated or missing spouse<br />is very for a husband or wife.Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-50558043912088110452011-12-18T15:04:52.164-05:002011-12-18T15:04:52.164-05:00Leila:
The Supreme Court has indeed declared segre...Leila:<br />The Supreme Court has indeed declared segregated buses illegal. The issue now is the that specific bus companies are either falling into line or opting out.Rabbi Jeremy Rosenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723608669485173271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-70879589697770692372011-12-18T15:03:23.315-05:002011-12-18T15:03:23.315-05:00Adam:
No but at least in Israel the courts will ma...Adam:<br />No but at least in Israel the courts will make a husband who refuses to c-operate a criminal offence!<br />JRabbi Jeremy Rosenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723608669485173271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-71996244731899126452011-12-18T12:20:54.356-05:002011-12-18T12:20:54.356-05:00Nor do PNAs address the case of a
childless widow....Nor do PNAs address the case of a<br />childless widow.Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-45968504431099213672011-12-18T10:46:37.380-05:002011-12-18T10:46:37.380-05:00PNAs do not address the fundamental
asymmetry betw...PNAs do not address the fundamental<br />asymmetry between the male and female parties to a marriage. They fail to<br />create an even balance in cases where a<br />spouse really does disappear, or what<br />follows after unfaithfulness, or where a<br />spouse is incapacitated.<br /><br />Outside Israel one has choice. One can<br />buy into the system. In Israel one<br />can't easily opt out.Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-27744238545994949262011-12-18T10:10:18.258-05:002011-12-18T10:10:18.258-05:00I like that idea, Leila! Seems no one has the guts...I like that idea, Leila! Seems no one has the guts to take such a strong stance, though.Shoshinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-67778105158314220342011-12-18T09:58:27.876-05:002011-12-18T09:58:27.876-05:00Thanks for your kind welcome back, Jeremy. I'...Thanks for your kind welcome back, Jeremy. I've been travelling in an unsegregated fashion. It struck me that if I were part of the Israeli government, I would halt the bus service to Charedim unless they stopped their nonsense. Then, if women chose to sit separately from men they could but there would be no enforcement available to men of that persuasion. That would also leave an opportunity for Mrs. Clinton to upbraid the Islamists rather than the Jews.Leilanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6141014.post-65168691547077168332011-12-17T22:12:55.725-05:002011-12-17T22:12:55.725-05:00Adam:
OK I know your point now and I have to say ...Adam:<br /><br />OK I know your point now and I have to say you are right. But this applies to both sides. We know that its where you open your file (tik) that counts. Women go to the secular courts because they believe they will be favored there. Men conversely go to the Rabbinate. In both cases, as in any court system there are good decisions and poor ones and yes on balance if it were my daughter (RL) I would advise her to go secular.<br /> <br />However as you may know throughout Europe Muslims as well as Jews can go for arbitration without getting to court and many many people prefer this because civil courts tend to decide against religious parents. An aggrieved partner can still appeal to civil law to overturn a perceived anti feminist judgment (I agree however the pressure in religious communities often forces women to capitulate). That is why I would like to see a fairer system allround.<br /><br />But tell pray where you know of one. Every system I know of has its faults and I am not doctrinaire, only speak from my own experiences and those of my consulters.<br /><br />But it is interesting that in the USA many Orthodox Jews rely on Civil Courts in many States to oversee an equitable and fair resolution hence the American (and English) Prenup which I accept is eschewed by the Charedi world. Yes its a shame we can't sort out our own problems.<br /> <br />JRabbi Jeremy Rosenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723608669485173271noreply@blogger.com